Curse

Teufel Eldritch · Nov 11, 2005, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Plz dont put words in my mouth. I am not judging you. I do not understand why you are getting all worked up. Appears to me your a bit defensive. Save your aggression for someone that is flaming you. I have not once told you how to play the game. I have instead tried to point out other options for your current complaint. Really now...calm down.

aron searle · Nov 11, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Plz dont put words in my mouth. I am not judging you. I do not understand why you are getting all worked up. Appears to me your a bit defensive. Save your aggression for someone that is flaming you. I have not once told you how to play the game. I have instead tried to point out other options for your current complaint. Really now...calm down.

BREATH AHHHHhhh

ok im worked up, apoligiese.

Im just fed up of people suggesting / telling that farming is not the way to go.

like i said 400 out of 550 hours NOT spent farming, but it is something i like to do, and every update makes it less enjoyable (yes it can be worked around, i stress less enjoyable not impossible).

(EDIT, Griffon farming / doing that for the first time was FUN, and the same with getting my first char to solo 5 hydras, may not have been my build but i found it extremly fun, if only for a short while).

Valdis · Nov 11, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalypse_xx

Yes, I think all professions should be able to solo, and I believe they can, correct me if I am wrong, but the point still remains, they don't like solo play, I'm sure this is in large part due to bots, but making the game unwelcoming to all solo players is not the best choice, IMO, but it is their game right?

If they want to discourage bots, there are many other ways to do this than to NERF solo builds. Hell anything as simple as having a "letter or symbol" to click on, when zoning, (that shows up in a different place every time), you know..like what they use to keep bots from spamming emails. They can also check peoples behaviors.... If they do the same thing over and over and over, the same way everytime.....its a bot.. I dont know about you but when i farm, i must take breaks-----Bots dont

And for Anet to try and nerf soloing all together is just absurd!! We can leave by ourselves (this by no means promotes party's). So saying that GW is a multiplayer game only, is very untrue. Not to mention that Anet is the one who came up with the skills that we all know and love, why wouldn't they think that we would be smart enough to put them together to take on things that we shouldn't be?

Finally, if we cant farm...Remove the 15K armor! We are not going to get it without being able to farm....and thats a fact.

Lord Iowerth · Nov 11, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

I have a few things i'd like to throw in about the update:

1) I think ANet needed to do something about farming, and what they did certainly acomplished that quite well ... it's good they keep track of the game economy, or else prices of absolutely everything would skyrocket and would ruin the game for those who didn't farm, etc. Kudos on that. I came to GW from another game whose market was completely out of control, it literally made me quit because it was so ludicrous.

2) I don't play a PBAoE smiter or a nuker, so the "running mobs" issue doesn't really effect me quite so much ... but I can say, if I did ... I would be *UBER* angry ... there goes pretty much your best way of taking down large groups of PvE monsters. (I've never been so happy to be an Air ele in my life!

) but on the other hand, i'm glad henchies will finally run out of that Mahago Hydra meteor storm that always manages to kill them ... and it is sort of fun to see hench or random mob's running about like crazy persons

I'm really sort of torn between being happy and being angry about the update, I don't think they should totally reverse it, but maybe make a few sleight changes so as not to render the fire ele (what they most likely consider to be) totally useless.

Pandora's box · Nov 11, 2005, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I understand the frustration and I agree that the pve section of this game is very poor. Basicly all encounters are the same: group of monsters with some fighters, a healer and a mesmer/necro to dispell, counter or drain. No flying dragons around, hordes of ghouls, fire elementals and so on. Its like the game engine cant handle sophisticated actions, so everything is a poorly worked oud duplication of a basic action with only some extra power added. No wonder that clever builds can easily slay the game engine. Causing a never ending downwards spiral of attemps to make things more difficult by exploiting the little recources the game engine offers.

Nevertheless there lies some challenge in trying to keep slaying the nerfing system. I adapted a slower build of farming long ago, and it stills serves me, even after this change
As for the expansion, I think many people out of the million who bought the original game will give it a try if its not too expensive. That means Arenanet can afford it to follow its own direction. Maybe that's a shame because players can't slamb their fist on the table and demand things. Anyway, even I still play lod these days as every new update there adds some new items, so allways keep in mind that there are other games too... But as for me: its ok if people keep trying to improve pve, even if it implies giving negative reactions

Phoenix Ex · Nov 12, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

One of the main appeal in any RPGS is the reward, there is no way someone can play with the same old collector's weapon for months and not feel bored. Whenever people play games they want to feel like they accomplished something, and that's why people aim for the Fissure Armor and other expensive gears after they finish all the missions and quest.

What some people don't understand is that to encourage creativity, you don't just take whatever people spent TIME and EFFORT to create, throw it out the door, and somehow expect people to all adapt easily. Myself, for example, currently have 20k in total on all chars, this money comes from saving up every last bit of reward from 3 char's normal game play, and also some UW and FOW questing. With this 20k I can easily switch my Fire ele to a Water/Air/Earth no problem, but do I want to? If I do so, there goes my goal of saving up for the 15k armor.

I am sure many feel the same, they can adapt sure, but with all the time wasted there is just no motivation to do so. I really dislike this method of constant nerfing just to get people to change from overused builds. I much better alternative is to do "constant buff" to unused characters to give incentive for people to switch, and to increased gold drops to decrease the need of farming.

Joe L. · Nov 12, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

The focus of this thread has shifted to farming, but let us not forget, that fire elementalists take the biggest slam. However, it is a certainty that A-net has again assaulted farming with the mighty nerf bat.

Arena net is wrong to introduce a game, with a certain set of what can, and cannot be done, and along the way decide that they will have the say of what people will do, and completely change what can be done.
This reminds me of why I am a predominant console gamer. You get what you pay for, and if the game is not good, it is not good. But if it is, and you are having fun, you need not worry about someone coming along and changing the way you have to play. That is exactly what has happened. How many elementalists are out there? And of those, How many are fire.
The fact of the matter is that fire magic is a staple of the genre, and being one of the most destructive forces of nature, it is only natural, that is should kick a whole lot of ass, instead of being reduced to a high energy, exhaustative deterrent. Does not make Alot of sense.

And,what exactly is wrong with farming. If people want to grind, let them use their time how they see fit, it is theirs, the time that is, after all.
It is awfully pompous of Anet to think that they can stop all the botters anyway, because as long as computer code can be altered by human hand, there will always be this type of problem, and the only way to completely rid them is to not make a game, or just patch it until it is an unplayable shitty mess.

So Anet, my challenge is this. Take more time on your patches, instead of always forcing this redundant quick fix BS. And for a change would you stop dictating the way the game should be played, this is not a dictatorship afterall

CryingWolf · Nov 12, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Sorry I haven't read all these pages, but, it is funny how you get firestorm in pre you have to fight ?iceshards? which come in waves and stand there so you can nuke them. I am wondering now if they all run away? ANet teaches you one way on how to nuke then changes the way it works.

I do think this is a broken nerf!!!

Joe L. · Nov 12, 2005, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by CryingWolf

Sorry I haven't read all these pages, but, it is funny how you get firestorm in pre you have to fight ?iceshards? which come in waves and stand there so you can nuke them. I am wondering now if they all run away? ANet teaches you one way on how to nuke then changes the way it works.

I do think this is a broken nerf!!!

Broken indeed. Was pretty intelligent to make a patch intended for one thing, to also render a slough of skill completely worthless. Boggles the mind.

OH well if this is a sign of things to come, the game will not survive to chapter two, and when in does come out, they should just go pvp only.

*loads up Thompson, and jumps into CoD2* ratatatatatatatatat.....

Lelani · Nov 12, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Don't like the patch at all but yeah i'm willing to accept the monsters not chasing fleeing opponents, providing it's more thoroughly looked at. I don't believe all monsters should stop chasing as that just looks lazy. If ANet wanted realism as Gaile stated then surely some monsters would be relentless in persuit of prey that can't properly escape?

I don't agree with the Doppleganger being made easier as this and the fleeing update contradicts the idea of gameplay being made more difficult which seems to be most pro-patch fans excuse.

I also don't agree with the AoE update as it renders most AoE skills near-useless or severely weakened enough to warrant not bringing them at all. Severely weakens the Elementalist Fire skill line, destroys the idea of aggro management when you have an Elementalist in your group, makes Orion/Cynn a total pain to bring along, gives even "stupid" monsters a form of 6th sense when it comes to spells, and even single-shot AoE's cause mobs to scatter like headless chickens?

I've been playing a Necromancer lately and love the Mark of Pain and Spiteful Spirit spells, when I read the update information I went to go test see if they were affected, I was relieved to find they weren't. But upon grabbing a few Henchmen for some more in-depth testing with other spells I noticed Orion totally fluffing the aggro. I'd cast Mark/Spiteful and everything would be going well, then i'd see a Firestorm being cast in the same area only to have everything scatter leaving me cursing Orion. Now I just don't bring him at all.

Other Henchmen too seem to spend more time running around pointlessly even when struck with single shot AoE's making getting anywhere with them an absolute nightmare, Gaile asked how often we got mad at Henchies before. My answer is: Not as much as I do now.

I farm I admit, but that's not what this is about, I couldn't care less if farming was nerfed, in fact I support it providing the reason for farming is nerfed too.

CryingWolf · Nov 12, 2005, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

Alright, I'll admit it. I suggested this idea over a month ago.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=30

I think the main reason that certain people are applauding this idea is becuase Guildwars PvE is (or was) really only boiled down to this:

Step 1: Tank Gathers Aggro.
Step 2: Elementalists Meteor Storm/Fire Storm the crap out of it.
Step 3: Repeat.

I think people here want some harder PvE and that's what they like about the update...

Though I do believe, like I said earlier, Anet went to far. And people definaly have valid points when the say entire skills lines were rendered useless. Personally, I need a trip down to Fissure or UW before I can really make up my mind on whether I like the new update more than I hate it.

The key to your orginal idea is (move out of AoE once in a while) This wouldn't be so bad if it was say a chance that a mob that is not engaged in a fight or doing something else like casting a spell etc and the mob moves out of the AoE. Even in pvp a warrior hacking on a elem and the elem casts lava font the warrior doesn't break off his attack and run. I would think the warrior would say I can handle this "I have plenty of health left" I am going to pound this elem into the ground or hope for a key heal from his monk. The AI only has one thought in an AoE that is to run away. That means it is just as bad as standing there and taking it. No AI at all, just pure reaction!!!

Loviatar · Nov 12, 2005, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe L.

And,what exactly is wrong with farming. If people want to grind, let them use their time how they see fit, it is theirs, the time that is, after all.
It is awfully pompous of Anet to think that they can stop all the botters anyway,

first they are not against farmers they are against bots.

if they want to grind then Anet is helping them by giving them more grind time.

as for the bots they are at least trying to stop them which is more than your we cant stop them all so why even try crap

Bit Player · Nov 12, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I’m pretty indifferent about A-Net’s carrot-and-stick approach to skill changes affecting various builds in PvE - seems one can always find another interesting way of accomplishing personal gaming goals.

However, I don’t care much for the newly implemented AI. The manic chaos of mobs & henchies has taken much of the fun out of PvE for me: I tried PvP several times and decided it wasn’t my idea of fun for this reason. I’ll try the game a few more times but imagine the mad-mob-scrambles will cause me to end up tossing the game in the closet. GW has been immensely fun up till this point and has taken far much more of my time than I initially expected: I do need to return to RL anyway...

828168 · Nov 12, 2005, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe L.

Broken indeed. Was pretty intelligent to make a patch intended for one thing, to also render a slough of skill completely worthless. Boggles the mind.

OH well if this is a sign of things to come, the game will not survive to chapter two, and when in does come out, they should just go pvp only.

*loads up Thompson, and jumps into CoD2* ratatatatatatatatat.....

The game will survive to chapter 2 since chapter 1 is already bought and paid for. People will not just quit because they've wasted their money on this game already. But for chapter 2, many may not want to spend anymore money on a game that creates a set of skills that can't be used as it was originally intended for in the first place. Now don't tell me those fire spells are there to look pretty on empty targets? If so, why not change it so you can throw meteor showers, firestorm, etc. anywhere you want rather than just a fixed target? Therefore they can run but you can still have a chance at hitting something. Ack... I'm glad I was already building up a mesmer.

Jimmy The Trickster · Nov 12, 2005, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Rather than Flooding this Threat with my personal views, I thought I'd go ahead and write an essay about it. I'm not actually sure if this is better than a dozen smaller posts, but why not?

Just so people know, I do not farm. I have not beaten the game, and I spend most of my time playing with my very upset wife who plays an Elementalist. we play as a team, her and I, and up until recently, we did ok. After the patch, we're unable to go anywhere, as our strategy relied mostly on me (as a mesmer) negating the monks and magic users, while she burned up the warriors. Now, her spells are lucky to hurt a single individual, much less a group, and I'm barely able to inflict damage as it is. Monsters don't die, and we do...it's just sucky...

Alright, this is my Essay, and my two cents.
------------------

How to handle Area of Effect (AoE) Morale for Computer AIs.

The idea of having monsters fleeing AoE is a good one, but it's poorly implemented. Monsters now flee AoE attacks instead of doing anything else, which makes as much sense as monsters standing under the rain of fire and dying. They also flee attacks that work ONLY because of their duration effect (like chaos storm) rendering those particular attacks useless. Also, monsters don't flee when they're hit with several high-powered attacks, like flare, or energy burn, but will flee very weak AoE spells just cause. This entire revision makes the game both silly and a little strange, and is arguably worse than no revision.

This has led to a lot of debate about why this revision was done. Many believe that A.Net did this to discourage farming, specifically that performed by Bots. Others think that this is the rebalancing issue that was finally required to push Fire-Elementalists off their nuker-status. That by this action, Fire-Elementalists are now only as powerful as the other skillsets. Some, expecting the worst of A.Net, have gone so far as to say this was an attempt on their part to reduce the population of players, and thus cut down on bandwith cost. While I seriously doubt the last one, I must say I'm not privy to A.Nets inner workings, and I have no clue what their motivation. My guess, giving A.Net the full benefit of the doubt, was that they intended to make the game more enjoyable by implementing a new, more responsive, AI.

Now, assuming that was their intent, I do believe they screwed up. I don't think they intended to "Break" the AoE spells, nor do I assume that they're pleased with the response (1000+ posts in one forum alone, an easy half of them negative, does not make for a happy customer base). I believe they are observing, and already working on steps to rectify this problem. I don't believe they will take a step back, nor am I sure I want them to. What I want, and what I believe most people want, is for the monsters to behave in a way that's interesting, even challenging. The current method of always fleeing AoE, even if the monsters/henchmen are supposed to be tanking, is not realistic or fun. The ideal method would be them fleeing when they took a certain amount of damage, and would depend on the monster/henchmens role. A tank should act differently than a caster or a healer. If they do flee, they should flee directly away from the attack, not randomly around.

However, even in the most ideal circumstances, a creature should not always flee, just like they should not always fight. The most Human thing that Humans do is act unpredictably. Monsters should do this as well. An easy way to handle this would be with percentages. A creature would have a high percentage chance of doing the obvious thing, and a lower chance of doing the unexpected things. For a tank, the obvious thing should be to stand and take it (they are tanks, after all), whereas the monks should be the most likely to flee. Bosses should be more likely to stay and fight regardless of their class, simply because they're usually very very tough.

It would be easy to create a hierarchy of performance and morale. Performance being the natural, controlled acts of self-preservation. For example, stepping out of Chaos Storm, running from a warrior, etc. These acts would happen without the creature losing control, or stopping it's attempt to fight. Some creatures would have relatively low performance, like Scarabs or the Grawl. Other creatures should have a high performance rating, specifically bosses and intelligent human-type monsters like the White Mantle. Henchmen should probably be given a high performance as well, though a more ideal system would allow for them to be commanded by the group leader (but that's a different post).

A high performance does not mean that the creature should always seek to avoid attacks, but rather, it should allow the monster/henchmen to act in the most effecient manner possible. A warrior with a high performance should not flee from AoE, unless the AoE keeps them from doing thier job (i.e. Meteor Shower). The Monk should flee everything, but attempt to stay close to their escort, allowing them to heal as they can. A lower performance would mean they would not act effeciently. The monk wouldn't always dodge the AoE, a warrior would be likely to. Also, low performance would increase the delay between action (firestorm) and reaction (getting out of the way).

The other side of the AI would be morale. This is the chance that the creature will give up the fight. Low level creatures facing a high level character should loose their morale pretty quickly, going to the point where they simply would flee after a single hit. In this case, there would be two different triggers that would cause the creature to check its morale. The first would be losing 50% or 75% of its health during combat. The second would be losing 25% of its health in a single attack. In other words, if the monster in question has 100 health, it would check to see if it runs at 50 health, and 25 health. It would also check if it loses 25 health in a single attack. Now, certain things would affect morale. For example, the presence of a boss should make it less likely that monsters will run, just as the presence of players should make it unlikely that the henchmen will run. Monks would add positively to morale, as they have the ability to heal.

Monsters with high morale would be much more unlikely to flee from combat, despite their damage. The highest level should only very rarely run (5% of the time), where as the lowest levels should run often. Because this is a combat game, the monsters should skew towards not running.

So, with these two numbers in hand, it should be possible to craft how monsters should act. A monk boss, for example, should go to great lengths to avoid AoE. A warrior boss should focus on getting to the spellcasters and past the warriors, and be relatively indifferent to AoE attacks. Low-Level monsters should be likely to flee higher level characters. Charr should be unlikely to run (high morale), but bandits should run constantly (low morale). Scarabs should be allowed to run, but Azure Shadows should almost never run. Giants shouldn't be competent, but they should be pretty unwilling to run away. I can't think of a group that would be super competant, and yet flighty, but I'm sure there's something.

And when it comes to henchmen, the goal should be to have them act as players. They should have a very high performance and morale. They should not leave the group, or forget how to do their jobs (tank, heal, whatever). They should be able to run after monsters have killed the players, but not before then (unless the player runs). They should act responsibly.

Look, the point isn't to break AoE, or to make the monsters behave like "crazed headless chickens". The point is to have them act in a matter that is interesting, challenging, and also believable. Before, they suffered from Never Running. Now they suffer from Always Running. There's a balance that needs to be struck where sometimes they run, and sometimes they don't. Skills that relied too strongly on a weak AI should be tweaked to do more damage in a shorter period or have fewer disadvantages (casting time, casting cost, recharge time). That should be done regardless.

But then, this is just my two cents.

dargon · Nov 12, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Son Of Morgoth

is it just me or do most of the people seem to want this update reversed? doesnt majority rule? well hopefully it does otherwise i dont think we are goign to have have people buying the guildwars expansion especially when a world of warcraft expansion is comin out soon as well.

If you think that the people visiting the forums count as a majority, you are sorely mistaken. I'd say the forum population might count as about 5% of the total player population, and even then, less than 25% of the forum population actually makes some form of post, either for or against various things.

dargon · Nov 12, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

For all those people saying use snare, use your noggin yourself and stop copy and pasting that quote

What if your class DOES NOT HAVE SNARE, that means you CANT USE THE HENCHIES THAT HAVE AOE.

well done

Lets see, snares...

Ele: about 33% of the water line, plus a couple in earth
Mes: Crippling Anguish, Ethereal Burden, Imagined Burden
Monk: none
Necro: none
Ran: maiming strike, pin down, barbed trap, spike trap, muddy terrain
War: axe rake, hamstring

Looks to me like only 1 in 25 possible class combos (I'm counting Mon/Nec = Nec/Mon, etc) has atleast 1 form of snare in the primary or secondary class and none of the snares makes use of a classes primary attribute.

Feminist Terrorist · Nov 12, 2005, 01:02 AM // 01:02

I just got back from a skill cap group in Perdition Rock. I changed my skills around to take into account the new AOE effect, and even with that, I must say that the update has definitely taken the fun out of the game for me. It is harder, but it's harder in a chaotic, unfun way. I'm glad I have other characters to play, but my ele was always my favorite. Sadly, she's going to spend some downtime.

Direct note to anyone from ArenaNet or GuildWars: I don't care either way about farming, but I acknowledge that for many, it's the best way to earn enough gold to afford the outrageously expensive armor that YOU put in the game. Farming is also, for many, the best way to afford the green items that YOU put in the game. The economy is getting out of control, thus farming. However, I don't farm, don't run bots, don't use exploits, yet I'm being punished for playing a fire ele in a manner and with skills that YOU put in the game. I really feel that the latest update is very unfair to those of us who are simply playing the game the way it was built to play. I'm frustrated and feel that I'm being punished. I've played the game for months now, and enjoyed it very much. I've recommended it to friends as a great game, but no more. The game used to be fun, banlanced, and enjoyable. No longer. It's now a broken mess that makes me almost dread playing.
Please reconsider the update, roll it back, and bring enjoyment back to GuildWars.

Sincerely,
A very sad Feminist Terrorist

entropy · Nov 12, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Lets see, snares...

Ele: about 33% of the water line, plus a couple in earth
Mes: Crippling Anguish, Ethereal Burden, Imagined Burden
Monk: none
Necro: none
Ran: maiming strike, pin down, barbed trap, spike trap, muddy terrain
War: axe rake, hamstring

Looks to me like only 1 in 25 possible class combos (I'm counting Mon/Nec = Nec/Mon, etc) has atleast 1 form of snare in the primary or secondary class and none of the snares makes use of a classes primary attribute.

Stop naming snares and play it. If you like the chaos great. But most people don't like how the monsters can't even decide whether to run or fight from an aoe. Its fricking retarded. 33% of the water line where are your statistics? B real and stop just naming things. How bouyt if I'm a dom mesmer. How bout I'm a warrior and don't want to chase my enemy everywhere. How bout I don't have many water skills. Think about the options but get real.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 12, 2005, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by entropy

Stop naming snares and play it. If you like the chaos great. But most people don't like how the monsters can't even decide whether to run or fight from an aoe. Its fricking retarded. 33% of the water line where are your statistics? B real and stop just naming things. How bouyt if I'm a dom mesmer. How bout I'm a warrior and don't want to chase my enemy everywhere. How bout I don't have many water skills. Think about the options but get real.

Agree. I got a axe and there are few skills that can slow enemies down. But if i switch to hammers than only thing i got is the knockdown ability to bring them down. So there are lots of combination or skills that you can used but for some.. we don't always have the same kind of skill sets.